Transformers 3: Less Action, More Emotion?

[Firefalcon]

Ah

[Xaxis]

Well, now that we're off topic, I might as well add...








... I like pie.

[Wishful Thinking]

Originally Posted by Firefalcon

.... WHAT? ....

More action. Less emotion.

[pittstop]

trouble is, and I don't want to be accused of flogging a dead horse here, but what emotion was present in the first two films wasn't conveyed in anything like an interesting, engaging, convincing or even well acted way, from the "leads". Sorry but if you're batting with a team of left handed players you don't insist they bat right handed.

Give Fox and Labeuf the dialogue they can actually perform and give this "it's a comic drama" rubbish a rest. They can't convey the dialogue convincingly and those scenes jar quite profoundly from the action sequences, which very few people can argue Bay has difficulty directing (beyond his obsession with shaky cam).

With a more proficient cast I'd say go for it, even out a plank of wood like Sarah Michelle Geller, you managed to get a convincing mix of pathos and humour from time to time, but NOT Megan Fox - she has two modes, vamp and half asleep.

[Wishful Thinking]

Originally Posted by pittstop

trouble is, and I don't want to be accused of flogging a dead horse here, but what emotion was present in the first two films wasn't conveyed in anything like an interesting, engaging, convincing or even well acted way, from the "leads". Sorry but if you're batting with a team of left handed players you don't insist they bat right handed.

In the first film, you feel a bit of emotion when S7 captures Bumblebee and Sam's doing everything he can to futily protect him.

In the second film, I never had any of those feelings at all, which is why it's regretably an inferior film to the first.

IF...and I do mean if...Bay can somehow bring in a few more scenes that can wrest a couple of emotions for longer than 5 seconds in the third film, I can't help but think it'll be all the better for it.

[YoungGuyver]

That clip of Optimus in the second, giving the big speech to the humans in the begining, THAT was actually good. A great mood. That was the one time where I felt that Optimus had be done right. So much of the rest sucked, but there was at least that.

[Grimlock99]

It's funny to see that the emotional moments that were mentionned above had nothing to do with the death of characters.The 1986 movie had more emotions in the death of Prime.

And i just got the "Star Trek" bluray ,and i confirm it has more emotions in it's first 10 minutes than both Bay's Tf movies.So i really doubt he could make a radical change in TF3.
And by the way ,i really recommend the "Star Trek" bluray.It has a few deleted scenes that explain some missing parts of the story.And we also see his take on the Klingons.

[pittstop]

Yeah several people (both here and in newspaper reviews) have pointed out that Prime's death doesn't seem to have any resonance in this film and that it isn't conveyed convincingly. Even if they knew he could come back, why was there not the show of grief there was for Jazz's death? and for that matter why was there not more concern shown for Bumblebee's injuries?

adding some convincing emotion to the 3rd part would be a welcome improvement, but I sincerely do not think the focus needs to be entirely shifted towards it. If someone is having an emotional crisis is every scene it will come across as sci fi melodrama, which considering the last two outings have veered towards farce, would be too big a leap.

He needs these films to evolve from one another to keep the audience he already has, change the tone too much and your sunk. However, that sounds a little like I'm doing a u-turn on Bay. I've been one of the many voices calling for the next film to be drastically different to the last two. But in reality short of a reboot, I can see that such a drastic style change could be detrimental.

I am convinced however that several aspects of the film need to be minimised even though I'm no longer advocating eliminating them entirely. For example you need the wittwicky family to return for continuity. But you don't really need them ALL to be central. Similarly you need all the existing robots to put in an appearance, including the twins, for continuity. But have them move to the background more so the other characters can get some screen time.

[Xaxis]

Originally Posted by pittstop

Yeah several people (both here and in newspaper reviews) have pointed out that Prime's death doesn't seem to have any resonance in this film and that it isn't conveyed convincingly. Even if they knew he could come back, why was there not the show of grief there was for Jazz's death? and for that matter why was there not more concern shown for Bumblebee's injuries?

Jazz hardly got any grief either. I didn't find Prime holding Jazz's two halves, one in each hand, very respectful of a fallen friend nor much of a display of grief. It was more like "oh, poor Jazz. I guess that's that".

In my opinion, the only Optimus Prime death that was done well and had impact was in the '86 movie. All others since then have lacked something and had much less of an impact.

Also, killing off a character such as Prime in the second movie of a franchise only to resurrect him in that same movie doesn't really allow for much resonance or impact. Especially when the first installment of the franchise serves to introduce the concept of Transformers and doesn't do much character development. Prime's death could have carried more impact had the second movie been a story that lent itself to some quality character development and his death been saved for the third.

[YoungGuyver]

It's also really weird that noone was at all surprised that megatron was alive. What impact does death have if coming back to life is so common place that noone is surprised by it?

I mean, it's not that common, but they may as well have been acting like it was.

[Xaxis]

Good point, YG.

[Aesir]

Originally Posted by YoungGuyver

It's also really weird that noone was at all surprised that megatron was alive. What impact does death have if coming back to life is so common place that noone is surprised by it?

I mean, it's not that common, but they may as well have been acting like it was.

well to us, who have seen Megatron resurrected a hundred times, and seen optimus die more than that over the years, it just doesnt affect us anymore lol

[pittstop]

YG is right though, it's not the fact the audience know megs will come back that important. The films cast shouldn't, unless resurrecting transformers is a daily occurrence, in which case the reaction to Prime's death is understandable.

I disagree on the "no show of respect" part Xaxis, I actually did think the moment when the autobots were looking at prime holding Jazz's body conveyed something. OK not a national day of mourning on Princess Diana levels, but still not completely ignored.

That said I'd have not killed jazz off in the first place, since BB had more screen time his "death" would have had bigger impact on the audience. Not that I dislike this version of BB that much, hell if I was killing off characters I don't like there wouldn't be a Decepticon left, but just to give us a bit of SOMETHING, some depth to this bloody franchise, BB getting the big one would have had a bigger impact.

[Grimlock99]

Originally Posted by pittstop

I disagree on the "no show of respect" part Xaxis, I actually did think the moment when the autobots were looking at prime holding Jazz's body conveyed something. OK not a national day of mourning on Princess Diana levels, but still not completely ignored.

I think the biggest insult was that after showing how relatively simple it is to bring a TF back to life,no one thought of Jazz.We actually have no idea on where Jazz body ended up.Some mentionned he maybe down in the ocean.

[Xaxis]

Originally Posted by pittstop

I disagree on the "no show of respect" part Xaxis, I actually did think the moment when the autobots were looking at prime holding Jazz's body conveyed something. OK not a national day of mourning on Princess Diana levels, but still not completely ignored.

I didn't say there was no respect or that Jazz's death was completely ignored. What I was getting at was that he wasn't shown much respect, especially for being Prime's first lieutenant.

All Prime said was "Aw, Jazz. We lost a great comrade, but gained new ones." Then, to the humans, "Thank you, all of you, you honor us with your bravery".

That was it.

Perhaps in Prime's view, that moment wasn't the proper time for a tribute or mourning, though there was no indication that they honored Jazz in any way or, as Grimlock99 said, what was done with his body.

Granted, there's an alien culture involved here. They may have completely different views of death than we do, and different rituals or ways of honoring the dead along with those views.


Also, in regard to Grimlock99's comment about not bringing Jazz back with the Allspark shard, the biggest part of that insult is that Prime found the shard in Megatron's chest immediately after holding Jazz's severed body in his own hands.

If the Decepticons knew finding that shard offered a chance to bring Megatron back, why didn't Prime think of bringing back his "great comrade" the moment he found it?

[pittstop]

Originally Posted by Xaxis

I didn't say there was no respect or that Jazz's death was completely ignored. What I was getting at was that he wasn't shown much respect, especially for being Prime's first lieutenant.

All Prime said was "Aw, Jazz. We lost a great comrade, but gained new ones." Then, to the humans, "Thank you, all of you, you honor us with your bravery".

That was it.

Perhaps in Prime's view, that moment wasn't the proper time for a tribute or mourning, though there was no indication that they honored Jazz in any way or, as Grimlock99 said, what was done with his body.

Granted, there's an alien culture involved here. They may have completely different views of death than we do, and different rituals or ways of honoring the dead along with those views.


Also, in regard to Grimlock99's comment about not bringing Jazz back with the Allspark shard, the biggest part of that insult is that Prime found the shard in Megatron's chest immediately after holding Jazz's severed body in his own hands.

If the Decepticons knew finding that shard offered a chance to bring Megatron back, why didn't Prime think of bringing back his "great comrade" the moment he found it?

sounds to me like either:

1. prime knows less about the all spark than the decepticons
2. he assumed the fragment didn't possess that capability (even though we'd already seen the whole allspark ressurect frenzy)
3. the writers forgot about jazz
4. it's against the autobot's philosophy to bring people back from the dead - in which case they dropped the ball resurrecting prime in the sequel...
5. don't look at me man I've still not seen it.

[Aesir]

Originally Posted by pittstop

sounds to me like either:


4. it's against the autobot's philosophy to bring people back from the dead - in which case they dropped the ball resurrecting prime in the sequel...

Technically the Autobots didnt revive Prime, Sam did it alone, he never told them what he was doing either, so that one could be true

[Wishful Thinking]

Originally Posted by Xaxis

In my opinion, the only Optimus Prime death that was done well and had impact was in the '86 movie. All others since then have lacked something and had much less of an impact.

And only then, though, did it have real impact if you were invested in the character from the TV series...I really doubt many adults in the audience cared when Optimus died back in '86.

[Wishful Thinking]

Originally Posted by pittstop

sounds to me like either:

1. prime knows less about the all spark than the decepticons
2. he assumed the fragment didn't possess that capability (even though we'd already seen the whole allspark ressurect frenzy)
3. the writers forgot about jazz
4. it's against the autobot's philosophy to bring people back from the dead - in which case they dropped the ball resurrecting prime in the sequel...
5. don't look at me man I've still not seen it.

I think he thought it was depowered, after releasing all of it's energy into Megatron. Remember, OP said he thought joining the Allspark with a bot's spark would kill that bot and destroy the Allspark as well (that WAS his plan for himself if it looked like the Autobots were going to lose). He probably thought a measly little shard had little to no value in terms of resurrecting Jazz.

Also noteworthy is the fact that the Decepticons had to canabalize on the Constructicons to resurrect Megatron...OP most doubtedly would be unwilling to do that for Jazz (although using a dead Transformer for armor might cause us to wonder).

[Firefalcon]

Well, Jetfire DID give up his parts willingly. At that point is was kind of like a mother killing themself to give their healthy heart to their child. Someone should make use of it. I think the bots could have canabalized a dead 'con...but then they would be the bad guys.

With resurections, it is often considered selfish and 'evil' to ignore one's mortalilty and extend one's life beyond it's natural course. Where the 'evil' decepticons might have no problem with it; the 'good' autobots might.

[pittstop]

Originally Posted by Wishful Thinking

And only then, though, did it have real impact if you were invested in the character from the TV series...I really doubt many adults in the audience cared when Optimus died back in '86.

I don't know about that, with vince decola's music going on in the background you can't help but get a cold shiver when he finally shuts down. They may not have had a clue who he was, but I doubt they thought "one less toy to buy this christmas..."

[Xaxis]

Originally Posted by pittstop

sounds to me like either:

1. prime knows less about the all spark than the decepticons
2. he assumed the fragment didn't possess that capability (even though we'd already seen the whole allspark ressurect frenzy)
3. the writers forgot about jazz
4. it's against the autobot's philosophy to bring people back from the dead - in which case they dropped the ball resurrecting prime in the sequel...
5. don't look at me man I've still not seen it.

1. Possible, though he certainly seemed to know much about it.
2. Not likely as the Allspark is the source of creation for the Transformers and Prime is well aware of that.
3. or didn't really care.
4. exactly
5. no worries.

Originally Posted by Aesir

Technically the Autobots didnt revive Prime, Sam did it alone, he never told them what he was doing either, so that one could be true

Bumblebee was involved the entire time, as were the Twins. If it were against the Autobot's philosophy to resurrect the dead BB would have attempted to communicate that to Sam. The Twins are probably too stupid to think of that. Also, Jetfire told Sam how to do it all and he had supposedly been an Autobot for a long, long time (though he still had Decepticon markings on an alt mode that could only have been scanned within the last 45 years). Also, once N.E.S.T. and the other Autobots arrived in Egypt, they knew what Sam was doing and assisted in the effort.

Originally Posted by Wishful Thinking

And only then, though, did it have real impact if you were invested in the character from the TV series...I really doubt many adults in the audience cared when Optimus died back in '86.

True, for someone who just saw that movie as is, Prime had little character development in the story and his death at such an early point would likely not have had much impact.

Originally Posted by Wishful Thinking

I think he thought it was depowered, after releasing all of it's energy into Megatron. Remember, OP said he thought joining the Allspark with a bot's spark would kill that bot and destroy the Allspark as well (that WAS his plan for himself if it looked like the Autobots were going to lose). He probably thought a measly little shard had little to no value in terms of resurrecting Jazz.

Also noteworthy is the fact that the Decepticons had to canabalize on the Constructicons to resurrect Megatron...OP most doubtedly would be unwilling to do that for Jazz (although using a dead Transformer for armor might cause us to wonder).

Prime's expression when he found the shard suggested that he recognized there could be potential power in the shard. If he thought it was depowered, it wouldn't have been placed in a "high security" containment area.

As for the cannibalization, Megatron was heavily damaged by the Allspark. Jazz was simply torn in half as far as we saw. If Bumblebee's legs could be completely replaced, I'd think they could have repaired Jazz. I'm going to say it's all the result of sloppy writing.

[Wishful Thinking]

Originally Posted by Xaxis

Prime's expression when he found the shard suggested that he recognized there could be potential power in the shard. If he thought it was depowered, it wouldn't have been placed in a "high security" containment area.

Considering he just witnessed Megatron's spark get shorted-out by it, I could buy that he didn't want to risk what might happen to Jazz as it seems to me that the Allspark seems a bit unpredictable. Maybe we'd end up with Shattered Glass Movie Jazz....

As for the cannibalization, Megatron was heavily damaged by the Allspark. Jazz was simply torn in half as far as we saw. If Bumblebee's legs could be completely replaced, I'd think they could have repaired Jazz. I'm going to say it's all the result of sloppy writing.

The difference between healing and resurrecting the dead should be obvious. Perhaps when resurrecting, more is required than just one body...

[Xaxis]

Originally Posted by Wishful Thinking

Perhaps when resurrecting, more is required than just one body...

Perhaps. Except in the case of resurrecting Optimus.

Since "The Doctor" said they needed parts before the ordered "ze little one" killed, I figured they needed extra parts due to extensive damage to Megatron's body. Being evil, he just demanded parts from the nearest suitable source.

There are enough thin areas in the movie's stories that bringing logical explanations to them all is quite likely an impossible endeavor. Therefore, I rest with my sloppy writing solution.

[Wishful Thinking]

Originally Posted by Xaxis

Perhaps. Except in the case of resurrecting Optimus.

Yes, but the Allspark didn't resurrect him, the Matrix did. It may be sloppy writing, but there is some continuity you can follow to justify it. Or, it may be a case of sloppy editing too, in that explanations were written but dropped from the final edit. Apparently, Orci and Kurtzman went out of their way to explain the backstory of the new Star Trek, the scenes were filmed and then Abrahms trashed the scenes for the final edit to cut time for more explosions.

[Xaxis]

Okay, I'll figure sloppy editing in as a factor too. Sloppy writing still plays a part due to the limitations posed by the writers strike.

[joshwilson3]

Originally Posted by Aesir

but vending machines have alot of mechanical parts remember, and also...how big are vending machines in your part of the world? in England they aren't planet sized!!

What I'm saying is it is ridiculous that those objects turned into a Transformer. Just like that cell phone in TF1. It had missiles and ammunition. Where did the phone get that, from thin air? Where did the Mountain Dew machine get parts so it can shoot coke cans in the air?

So, if all of that is possible in Bayverse, then I believe a piece of the cube could revive Cybertron. Or better yet, Shockwave is still on the planet and was able to get energon to revive the planet.

[joshwilson3]

Originally Posted by YoungGuyver

That clip of Optimus in the second, giving the big speech to the humans in the begining, THAT was actually good. A great mood. That was the one time where I felt that Optimus had be done right. So much of the rest sucked, but there was at least that.

I thought it was repetitive. Already heard it at the beginning and end for the first movie. Didn't need it again for the second movie. It will probably be in the third movie though.

[YoungGuyver]

hmm. repetitive? I guess it is similar to the speech from the begining. But right there, at -that- moment it was perfectly placed. They had the tone of Optimus right on the ball. When it comes to defining the character, that made me happy. Granted, the rest of the movie was pretty much crap, and I'm kinda uncomfortable with the 'what if your wrong line' because its kind of an excuse for military action under any circumstance. But the tone and ambiance for that part was nailed.

[Aesir]

Originally Posted by joshwilson3

I thought it was repetitive. Already heard it at the beginning and end for the first movie. Didn't need it again for the second movie. It will probably be in the third movie though.

what?

movie 1: start: speach was about the allspark
movie 1: end: speach was about allspark being destroyed and sending a message to the other Autobots in space
movie 2: start: The Autobots have arrived, and Nest has been formed
movie 2: end: the humans and autobots appear to be connected in the distance past

how are those the same speaches?!?!?

[Firefalcon]

Not everyone poses the same comprehension skills.

[pittstop]

Originally Posted by Firefalcon

Not everyone poses the same comprehension skills.

surely you mean possesses

[Wishful Thinking]

Originally Posted by pittstop

surely you mean possesses

Nah...he's just a poser.

[Xaxis]

Originally Posted by joshwilson3

I thought it was repetitive. Already heard it at the beginning and end for the first movie. Didn't need it again for the second movie. It will probably be in the third movie though.

If you're saying that opening and closing both movies with a voice-over of Optimus Prime is repetitive, I can see that.

I'm pretty sure that the "speech" that YoungGuyver was referring to was during the scene in the hangar when Optimus was speaking to the humans.

[joshwilson3]

Originally Posted by Aesir

what?

movie 1: start: speach was about the allspark
movie 1: end: speach was about allspark being destroyed and sending a message to the other Autobots in space
movie 2: start: The Autobots have arrived, and Nest has been formed
movie 2: end: the humans and autobots appear to be connected in the distance past

how are those the same speaches?!?!?

I'm not talking about what the speeches were about. I can understand the speeches in the first movie even though I could of done without it.

But didn't see the need to do another one in the 2nd movie.

[joshwilson3]

Originally Posted by Xaxis

If you're saying that opening and closing both movies with a voice-over of Optimus Prime is repetitive, I can see that.

I'm pretty sure that the "speech" that YoungGuyver was referring to was during the scene in the hangar when Optimus was speaking to the humans.

That is what I was talking about. I would have much rather they explain what is going on as the movie unfolds vs. making speeches. But I say there will be speeches in the 3rd movie as well.

[Aesir]

Originally Posted by joshwilson3

I'm not talking about what the speeches were about. I can understand the speeches in the first movie even though I could of done without it.

But didn't see the need to do another one in the 2nd movie.

Originally Posted by joshwilson3

That is what I was talking about. I would have much rather they explain what is going on as the movie unfolds vs. making speeches. But I say there will be speeches in the 3rd movie as well.

so then the scrolling words at the start of the Star Wars movies, or the narraction at the start of the original 80's TF movie were bad ideas too?

[joshwilson3]

Originally Posted by Aesir

so then the scrolling words at the start of the Star Wars movies, or the narraction at the start of the original 80's TF movie were bad ideas too?

The speaches weren't really needed for the Transformers live action movies. I could maybe see it at the beginning of the first one. But didn't really see a need for it again at the end of the movie, or for the 2nd movie.

Granted, with Star Wars, theres alot more going on with the story than with Transformers landing on earth. And with Star Wars, it is a trilogy with over arcing plots, etc.

[Aesir]

Originally Posted by joshwilson3

The speaches weren't really needed for the Transformers live action movies. I could maybe see it at the beginning of the first one. But didn't really see a need for it again at the end of the movie, or for the 2nd movie.

well the one at the start of the second movie was just to tell you what had happened between the films, and the end speaches are like a "teaser" if you will, since the first film had Optimus talking about inviting new Autobots to earth, which happened in the second movie, so maybe the third movie looks deeper into the shared past of the humans and transformers, or maybe it was just an old bot rambling

[joshwilson3]

Originally Posted by Aesir

well the one at the start of the second movie was just to tell you what had happened between the films, and the end speaches are like a "teaser" if you will, since the first film had Optimus talking about inviting new Autobots to earth, which happened in the second movie, so maybe the third movie looks deeper into the shared past of the humans and transformers, or maybe it was just an old bot rambling

I thought the whole story sucked for the live action movies anyways. So, I guess it doesn't really matter. haha.

[Aesir]

Originally Posted by joshwilson3

I thought the whole story sucked for the live action movies anyways. So, I guess it doesn't really matter. haha.

to each his own i guess

I mean some people actually like the Twilight series lol

[Matty]

I thought the death of prime and also when he was brought back to life had some emotion attached to it. As for the rest of the film, well, it was crap

[Grimlock99]

Originally Posted by Aesir

to each his own i guess

I mean some people actually like the Twilight series lol

Are you comparing ROTF with some "Chick Flicks"?

Ok ,well that would explain a lot .lol

[Aesir]

Originally Posted by Grimlock99

Are you comparing ROTF with some "Chick Flicks"?

Ok ,well that would explain a lot .lol

I compare all films the same way

[Grimlock99]

You maybe on to something.Maybe Bay will go for a romantic thriller for TF3. .The Twins could get a shock from Jolt,scrambling their brains and making them "charming".Then they would scan a "New Moon" poster and become Robert Pattinson and Taylor Lautner.

[Aesir]

Originally Posted by Grimlock99

You maybe on to something.Maybe Bay will go for a romantic thriller for TF3. .The Twins could get a shock from Jolt,scrambling their brains and making them "charming".Then they would scan a "New Moon" poster and become Robert Pattinson and Taylor Lautner.

oh please no, I cant stand the sparkly emo vampire, and the shaggy emo werewolf, or the pale emo girl, damn that movie has more emos than the Harry Potter movies

[Grimlock99]

Originally Posted by Aesir

oh please no, I cant stand the sparkly emo vampire, and the shaggy emo werewolf, or the pale emo girl, damn that movie has more emos than the Harry Potter movies

Soon we'll learn that Kristen Stewart will replace Megan Fox.And also for the soundtrack,Linkin Park will be replaced by a duo of Lady Gaga and Justin Timberlake.

(Actually i wanted to bring that up in the rumor thread,but it's more fun here )

[pittstop]

what's the different? linkin park are pretty awful and so is lady gaga. AND DON'T GET ME STARTED ON TIMBERLAKE!

Musically I'm not down with the kids anymore, you all listen to such dross.

[Wishful Thinking]

Originally Posted by pittstop

what's the different? linkin park are pretty awful and so is lady gaga. AND DON'T GET ME STARTED ON TIMBERLAKE!

Musically I'm not down with the kids anymore, you all listen to such dross.

Sooo...then my listening to Micheal McDonald's Greatest Hits over lunch has now made me "cool"?

[Xaxis]

Originally Posted by Wishful Thinking

Sooo...then my listening to Micheal McDonald's Greatest Hits over lunch has now made me "cool"?

"If I have to listen to 'Yah Mo B There' one more time, I'm gonna 'Yah Mo' burn this place to the ground."